Lead Author of the NFT or ERC-721 with William Entriken
Episode Notes
William Entriken is the Lead author of ERC-721 standard.
Is the NFT a revolution of intellectual property
Adidas and Prada, brand collaborations
The start with 2017-18 Cryptokitties
Intellectual Property
Why do people vilify NFTS? Is is a love hate relationship?
How to buy art work? Do you sell them? Do you hold on to them?
Buyer's remorse and how William is a witness to that
3 phases: we are in phase one, new artists with an affinity for tech. Phase 2 is established artists with some affinity to tech but not just in the visual arts but maybe to see someone in person. Phase 3 is supply chain, trillion dollar industry. Everything with a serial number. And NFT's do not need to be on the blockchain.
How the NFT can play a part of tracking the supply chain issues and even tracking food for allergies or kosher, etc.
How far are we from Phase 3? How close are we from showing the traceability?
Has the pandemic slowed down the phase 3 of NFT implementation
From Obamacare to Trump to Biden, pharma will be on the serial numbers, tracked though supply chain and now can be done with NFTs
food sustainability, conflict free clothes, animal welfare: how we can use the QR code or the NFT to provide traceability and verify possibly in 10 years.
As a collector: Does it have utility? Did that matter to you? Does it have a road map? And does that matter to you?
Expectation of collection of art, is the roadmap security or if they don't carry it out is it false advertising? He's looking for sustainable ideas. Projects doing the right things.
For big brands, is the magic in the utility and road maps?
Adidas fandom or brand ambassadors.
When you buy art as a collector, what is the value it brings to you? Intrinsic value on the wall, phygital and digital twinning, just to support a friend, value propositions like flex value (virtue signaling)
Apple computers and iPhones, financial assets, value proposition could be that you exchange it every year
Who came up with the name non-fungible token? And did William rename it? What name do you like? Check Linkedin for the poll.
Here is the official naming discussion for ERC-721 which resulted in Non-fungible tokens. https://github.com/fulldecent/EIPs/pull/2 you can see a nice table summary a few up from the bottom.
Here is ERC-721 https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-721
Here is a weekly phone call, NFT/Web3 Community Service Hour, where people can ask me anything about the topics we discussed https://phor.net/#hour
Welcome to the Summer Series of Culture Factor. I’m Holly Shannon.
When I was speaking and interviewing at NFT NYC I noticed themes that almost every one of my conversations touched.
This new Web3 digital space is made up of artists, collectors and businesses and when we stopped to scratch the surface, these underlying themes all pointed toward our most basic, fundamental, evolutionary need: connection.
Over the next few weeks, I’m going to break down the whys, not just the whats, of this new digital space we find ourselves in.
Hello Culture Factor Family, and welcome to the summer series.During my interviews at NFT NYC, a theme that revealed itself underneath the Web3 technology was the different kinds of user experience.
Technology accessibility, fiat (or, real cash money) vs. cryptocurrency, social media, personal expression, community, and education these are all facets of user experience that I’ve noticed directly affect people’s engagement in this space — both literally and metaphorically.
Season 4 of Culture Factor is produced by Avery Rogers' Paleblue Studios
Mint Holly Shannon + Culture Factor NFT
Harmony Wine Use Promo Code HOLLYROSE20 for 20% off
Watch Culture Factor and VaynerNFT
Season 4 producer Avery Rogers (Paleblue Studios)
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Transcript
Holly Shannon 0:02
Welcome to the Summer Series of Culture Factor. I'm Holly Shannon. When I spoke at this year's nfdm yc, I used my downtime to interview the experts about their engagement in the web three space. We've talked on culture factor a lot about what web three is and how it's being used. But I wanted to try and understand why. Almost every person I spoke to had a similar reason for being part of web three, they all wanted to help fulfill our most basic fundamental, evolutionary need connection. Over the next few weeks, I'm going to explore the methods that artists collectors and businesses use to bring about connection. I'll break down the whys not just the watts of this new digital space we find ourselves in. Well, hello Culture Factor family, I can't think of a better way to close out the summer series. Then with one of the architects behind the NFT. It's technically called the ERC 721. And the lead author of this is our final guest. We've spoken to many incredible artists, collectors and businesses this season. We've talked about the user experience, design, trust, and a web three that accounts for social good. And we are now presented with the opportunity to look to the future. With that said, we should not make decisions to ignore ideas or make decisions based on present market fluctuations. Doing so means we act in the moment and aren't thinking sustainably. It means we discount the strength to using these emerging technologies, because we allow fear to drive away our chance to look at study and identify best use cases for this technology. If we consider the argument to embracing the concepts, we will prepare for the possibilities of a future, one that lays forth a more transparent supply chain and business for one. And you'll learn more possibilities once you listen in to William Entriken. He's our next guest. I also want to say that this tech can be applied with or without blockchain or cryptocurrency. So being open to the future iterations and taking the good things we learn can help usher in a web three ecosystem that is stronger than how we will live web two. So now please join me with William Entriken and my Culture Factor family today, I have William Entriken with me, and we met actually at NFT NYC. And I'm gonna say like for a tech guy, he kind of defies the norm for me, like I watched him speaking on stage, and he's so funny and and really, like, in the middle of his speech was kind of like, well, I'll see you later and walked off stage and then like, came back in and I like thought it was really great. Like it was very engaging. And I think a lot of people when they're on stage are so serious, myself included, because when I look back at myself speaking, I'm really serious. But anyway, hello, welcome, William. How are you?
William Entriken 3:23
Hi, doing great here. Yes, that was that was a great time to meet. And you called me right before my performance. So what a great time to meet.
Holly Shannon 3:31
Yeah, you were you were like full of energy. But you're like smiles like ear to ear like you were totally ready. You could just see it in your face. Like you're just ready to hit the stage.
William Entriken 3:41
I've done it a few times before. So this is the fourth NFT NYC and speaking I think. And that's just one of many, many events out there.
Holly Shannon 3:52
So this is not your first rodeo. The first rodeo. Excellent. I want to do a proper introduction as well. But again, with like, I don't know if this was your your stab at humor or just came off this way to me. But when I was looking at your you know, the little write up your bio, you have this choice of four words. 4 words or 50 words, which I just found so funny. Because like when you read the 4 word one, it's literally a mic drop. And I don't know if that was intentional or not. But the foreword is lead author ERC 721. And for anybody because this is an educational podcast for anybody who's not aware of that. That is the NFT that is like William is the inventor of it. And I know I shouldn't say inventor where we were not the inventor. All right, but like really close in terms of like The language and what you do and I'll let you identify more closely. So I don't botch that up. But I'm just really excited that you're here for my summer series and to be able to talk to everybody about what you do. So why don't you clarify on the bio for me?
William Entriken 5:17
Sure. So on the forward intro, it's ERC 721 is a paper, and it explains what is an NFT the way we would use it on blockchain. I am the lead author of this paper. So it's a little academic, it's published. And you know, journals cite it. So sort of sort of academic, but you don't have to be a nerd to read this thing. That wasn't the intention. And so there were four authors. And just my name is because first that usually represents how much effort was put into the paper. But I'm not the Creator. The Creator is the second author. That's Dieter surely comes from what is now Flow and Dapper Labs and was Axioms in basically the makers of crypto kitties. And so he's, he's the creator. But in the history of this whole thing is I came in, and in his words, I gotta pass the finish line.
Holly Shannon 6:13
Nice. That's a that's a nice tagline that you got it through the finish line, actually had Dapper Labs on the show a little while back, but I didn't have that gentleman. So maybe you'll have to make that connection for me. And I'll reach out to him. So, in your mind, do you believe that the NFT has maybe started a revolution around the ownership of intellectual property? What is your take on it?
William Entriken 6:44
Revolution? Well have a vision here. So this is usually the speech I gave last year, I've given the speech a few times that New York and it's a shame you didn't get this one. But one of the big one, I try to zoom out and look at the big picture, revolutions a big word. So I want to do a justice.
Holly Shannon 7:06
Movement. It's okay.
William Entriken 7:09
What so right now, I think what we're seeing is a easier way for new artists, or Western established artists to sell their work. And real artists ship, right. So selling is an important thing. And I don't think I don't look down on selling a commercial or any of these money, things. I don't look down on that. Because artwork is about expression. And, you know, people buying things is part of perception. So I don't know if it's revolutional revolutionized IP in general. But for some people that are more creatives, I think it is very enabling. So it's a stepping stone, it's enabling revolution that's coming. So these bigger things take time, and I'm still waiting on them. You know, I'm still waiting on these. I've seen the future I'm involved in these projects, you know, I know it's coming. They I've seen that, the little bits and pieces, and I know it's when it's gonna get here. I know what it is. And it's that's the revolution.
Holly Shannon 8:12
Yeah, I think it is. It's on the edge of being embraced with a certain level of ferocity like it's, it's there. It's and we're seeing it with brands that are collaborating like, you know, your Adidas with Prada and that type of thing. So you're seeing it, almost starting at a very high brand level. But would you say was really more like when it was brought to light was the thought process more like the the individual artist?
William Entriken 8:49
Oh, the thought process was all encompassing. So you got to imagine 2017 2018, when the only thing we had it built in front of us, you know, tangible was crypto kitties, pictures of cats that you could breed. That's what was in hand. And the idea that we were thinking up includes all this stuff we're working on now. And so back in the day, I was actually studying a couple of specific use cases, and one of them's intellectual property. So I was at licensing Expo, which is a place where they make deals from, you know, you would go see a movie prescreen, you know, you put your phone in the box, and you can see whatever the new to Toy Story for Toy Story before it comes out. And they got the characters in there. And they don't want to say the characters for your lunchboxes in your, you know, backpacks and T shirts, whatever they sell was like your own right. And that's the game. That's intellectual property. That's what that that industry is like, you've got a lot of levels of people involved. And so that's where I was thinking. I said, we got pictures of cats, but that's where we're going. So we better lay the tracks thick because we got some big trains coming.
Holly Shannon 9:59
Very interesting. Seeing something that I've seen across the board, because I've been in Twitter spaces, I've been in clubhouse rooms. I've been on stage, I've done a few things that have put me in front of people who are learning about it, and those that are using it. And I feel like it's a love hate, like a love or hate kind of relationship. What what are you? What is your take on that? Like, do you have you been getting that from the beginning? Why do people vilify it?
William Entriken 10:37
Well, people get emotional and they, when there's money involved, it's, you know, multiplies everybody's emotions, people are making money losing money, and I just bought my first NFT, a couple months ago. So I've been on the sidelines from all this stuff. For me, it's really about the long term project. So caveat, you know, except for a couple of tests, or couple of demo projects, or something like that nothing of value. And, you know, I break contracts are gonna give caveats, right. So I've owned a couple of NFT's, but just for test purposes, but I actually bought my first one, two months ago. So I try to avoid, you know, looking at these ups and downs and taking it personally. And, you know, the one I bought was really just to support a specific artist, so I'm not planning on selling it, you know, the best way to make money in artwork,
Holly Shannon 11:29
to hold on to it right, as to
William Entriken 11:31
buy something you never want to sell. Alright, so people are not following that advice. They're learning the hard way, the wrong way to buy artwork. So that's an emotional ride for some people. And you know, people ask me, all, NF T's are terrible, they're hurting people, they're, I don't feel like they're hurting people, I don't feel like NF T's are walking up to your door robbing you and taking your money. I don't feel like they're, you know, attacking you on the street, I don't feel like this is what's happening. I feel like some people that have the resources to put money somewhere, feel like they're gonna flip it with an NFT. And some of those people are losing money. So I don't really feel so bad about that. I don't feel like critical infrastructure is running on NF, Ts. Anything that you would know about? So I don't feel like these things on TV are hurting anybody. And so I'm just going to put that in the bucket of buyer's remorse. Somebody bought something, they didn't like it, and they're gonna burn down the world complaining about how terrible it is. Well, you know, why did you buy that in the first place? I'm also involved. There's a there's a lawsuit, and I'm a witness, I'm an expert witness for the defense. And it's like, somebody bought a bunch of these things and are using it, it was like a game fi thing, where there's not only there's NF T's, but there's also money involved. They got really excited about it, and then they lost money, and now they're suing, and they're complaining about a million reasons. It's like, well, he's gonna lose money, would you still be upset? You know, is this is this really, because you're upset for these 17 reasons in the lawsuit? Or is it just because you lost money? You complaining? So I don't really lose a lot of sleep over that. Overall, you know, am I up at night, because these people are taking it the wrong way, or, you know, I have this grand vision, but it's not being applied properly. Not at all, I see different phases here. So I feel like this is a face, you know, this is gonna run, it's gonna run out of gas. We got another phase that's coming. And I see it happening, I see it clearly where we're going. And, you know, this is coming. It'll it'll burn out. But the longer picture, it's totally, totally in motion. And that's really all I care about.
Holly Shannon 13:47
Can you give us a vision of what that looks like?
William Entriken 13:51
Yeah, so I'll give you the three phases briefly. So where we're at now is going to be new artists. So not established artists, with kind of an affinity for tech. focus mainly on visual art. Pictures. That's phase one. That's where we are. And it's really easy to see why it's just because you got to be a first mover you got to jump in. And with these type of things, you're not nothing's really holding these people back. They don't have any contracts or croakers to worry about. So they can just jump right in. That's phase one. That's where we are. And that's starting to fizzle. Phase two is establish artists. So these are people that my mom would know, people, your mom, your parents, you know, your family might now and still having some affinity for tech, but not necessarily in visual arts. That's a much bigger universe here. So we're talking about people that my parents or family would have gotten tickets for to see in person or also if you go on IMDb when there's when there's a movie. There's a lot of people involved with these movies. These are the people I'm talking to, you know, you've got the actor. What about the composer About the director, we're seeing that too. What about, you know, the effects, people do digital effects, these people are leaving studios to go make NF Ts. So there's a lot of people on one of those credit rails, if you've ever watched the movie to the end, a lot of people there, and those people all add value. And so I think some of them are tech affinity, and they'll come in there. And that's kind of we're getting there, that's gonna be the second phase. Third phase is way larger. Third phase is just supply chain. I mean, this is like, the trillion dollar industry of everything that we do. Anything in your world that has a serial number on it can be an NFT. And by this point, the NF Ts, remember, NF T's don't have to be on blockchain. So we can use these concepts in the existing supply chain or the existing world. And so my, my vision here, or my mission, is that most of the stuff you buy, you're gonna be able to verify it somehow verify authenticity, or maybe some seller claim that stole vision. So I'm not trying to, you know, disintermediate government, make a revolution, the, you know, revolutionize finance, we're trying to do that. Trying to make it respecting people to buy stuff, when you buy stuff, whatever it is on your air pods or speaker things, cameras, some of these, these olives. Actually, all three of these have serial numbers on this nest. Right. So all this stuff has serial numbers on it, which means you can track it. And supply chain has a lot of issues supply chain. You know, their supply chains are getting much more diverse. You're buying things in one country, the finished products, but another country, specifically, I'm studying pharma supply chain, which has a lot of problems. But if you could just buy something, let's think about food. If you buy some food, and it says it's kosher. You have no idea what that means. And there's literally a religion around this people. You know, there's a religion around eating this food. And I think we can support people that care about what food they're eating care about a lot. They might want to check some of this stuff. Or they might want to have somebody else check it for them. But right now, it's like, it's like Dave Chappelle. I think it's Dave Chappelle. Oh, my legs broke what he got for me, I got a wooden leg, we got a chair, well yourself around. It's like, I want to eat kosher food we got well, we got this, you and we just stamp it on your food. You eat that. I hope that's Dave Chappelle. And, you know, we got nothing for these people. It's like, okay, well, we stamp at you. And, you know, it's good enough. I think we can do better, I think we can do a QR code, where you might, you know, be able to look something up. And that's just food that's easiest to explain. But what about farmer, you know, there's a, I just happen to know a lot about farm, there's a lot of problems that aren't as easy to articulate, but food is the easy example. So if you want food to be conflict free, direct to table organic, what does that even mean?
William Entriken 18:00
From, you know, with animals sustainability, all these things, we can track these things was that to do with NFT, the same thing, same exact thing. With artwork, we're just applying these concepts to make sure that the artwork that you get from this artist, and that you have is scarce, tradable, looks good, shows up on a Wednesday, that's what we're using it for today. That's, that's what we're that's the, as far as we're running with it. In the future, you're gonna buy food, you're going to scan a QR code, like wow. And you might be able to click a little bit, you know, you open something up on a computer, it's like, it goes deeper, deeper, deeper, you can click, click, click, click, you can like open the there's a little triangle, I don't know why they came up with the triangle, but you click the triangle on it, it drops down and there's details. And you can go deeper and deeper. Your food should be like that. So some people are allergic to certain foods, and you know, they're eating food that that's hurting them or for religious reasons. People want to eat certain food, I want to support all that. So that's, I'm not saying my food, you know that saying me personally, and my food issue is division of NFT. But I'm saying that we're we're going, that's going to happen.
Holly Shannon 19:10
How, how far away? Do you think we are from that phase three, where you can do that, where that traceability that supply chain is going to be so transparent.
William Entriken 19:19
We're getting there. So I've seen some use cases. I've advice, a couple projects that have been pharma, where we've done this, this is in production, so I'm not talking about things like might happen and telling you things that have happened. One company has vaccines for animals. It's the pharma company that also makes vaccines for humans under the same logo, and they have full traceability from the manufacturer to the warehousing to the injection. And so, not very far. You know, it's not it's not going all the way back to the ingredients of this but this is in production. So when you if you are pharma and you're buying these drugs. You are not using, you know, using your phone on some like, what? Three NF T stuff, they don't see the words NFT letters NFA. But in the back end, you know, behind the scenes, and it's user involved. And it's tracking this stuff, tracking it from here to there tracking from here to there. And it's been making incremental improvements. Maybe the supply chain is lazier, maybe tracking the warehouse levels is easier, you know, how many are coming? How many are going. So these are baby steps. That's already happened. So as I see this rollout happening, and in more places, it's just a matter of when do you want to stop ignoring it? So when do you want to stop ignoring that this is a better solution. And for me, you know, this is already starting. Maybe I don't know if you call it an inflection point. But I think it's just pervasiveness within 10 years, for that type of thing. So that's a, that's within five to 10 years from today, people will start, you'll start seeing like, there'll be a magazine that you read page 20. They'll be like, Oh, are you interested in how your your clothing is made? You know, we used to complain about child labor. And we, you know, we saw that, and page 20 to be like, Oh, PS, it runs on NF Ts. Remember that thing from 20 years ago, it was front page everywhere. That's st technology. Like you'll see it, there won't even be like it won't be in the front page. Child labor assault, you know, organic cotton everywhere and conflict free cotton clothing, that's not going to be on the front page. You know,
Holly Shannon 21:40
do you think it's slow down because of the supply chain issues we're having to do to the pandemic, do you think actually, that's even further out and say 10 years.
William Entriken 21:50
Now, it's already on track, because the industries that need this, it's not going to be like, Oh, everybody wants to do this today. And then it happens when that happens. It's a few specific people need it done yesterday, and they're getting it done. One of the things is related to Obamacare. So in the United States, there's actually a rule about drug supply chain security. It's about tracking the security. So this is even a security issue. It's like an addiction of these ingredients. They could be putting bad ingredients in there, it could be hurting people. This is this is a big issue. And Obama has been our office for a while, but these rules are big, and they take years to go into effect. And we're still working on even through all of Trump, you know, we're still working on the supply chain Act changes from Obama, even in Dubai, even beyond Biden, right. So these things take years and years, and they delay and they delay it. But one of the rules in there is all prescription drugs meet serial numbers. And they have to have interoperable systems. So you have to use NF T's for that. But these pharma companies are doing it. And they're they have they have to do serial numbers, you can't not do it. And this is a very big effort, like serial numbers, you just stamp serial number, and a one drone company, they've got 80 People in this department just on the serial numbers. So it's a it's a big thing. And so they put the serial numbers on there, they track it through the supply chain, and you know, whether you use NFT's or something else, that's up to them, but it's happening. So it's not like it's five years, it's gonna be 10 It's gonna be five. The 10 years will be the other industries like conflict, conflict free clothing, or food sustainability. You know, you get a whole foods and they've got their animal welfare rating one through five and say, Okay, do I want to buy one today or five? You decide? And there's no QR codes? Probably good enough for now. People trust Whole Foods. What about giant, you get a giant you know, you're going to trust their animal welfare rating. Do you think giant cares much about their supply chain as wholefoods does? I don't know. But it will be the giants of the world that are just like, Okay, well, we're gonna prove it to you. And you're going to scan the QR code and be like, Okay, well, I can trust that. I don't need to trust China. I can trust this, you know, multiple things that you can verify yourself. Those things will get published. So that's going to be the 10 years those things are not like I need the sun yesterday. Just like you said, You know what the economy with the supply chain, they move up and down.
Holly Shannon 24:27
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Are you working with? Is it the same core for people that wrote the paper that are actually rolling out some of this or No, you guys have dispersed and doing your own consultations at this point, very dispersed?
William Entriken 25:23
Yeah. So just very dispersed. I'm actually not in touch with them. I mean, I run into them online or whatever, but haven't seen them very much in the past four years, and we've all gone different directions. We all got in for different reasons. And so my reason is this mission. So I wanted to articulate it the way it said, it's, you know, half the things you buy, traceability or verify claims. That's my vision. And so for me to execute on my vision, I'm going to do podcasts, I'm gonna teach, I'm gonna do advisory, I'm going to, you know, point people in the right direction. I'm going to build examples, build demos, not starting my own company. Think that's too slow. So a lot of people say, Well, why didn't you start a company? You can do this yourself? I said, No, no, we're creating an industry here. It's gonna be a lot of companies doing this. So this is why I think the most effective way for me just do advisory work with specific companies that are inspired, and just support that. Other people are doing this for commercial. Dapper Labs is doing great. You know, we've seen NBA Top Shot, we've seen crypto kitties has been very successful. And so, you know, keep that up. Flow. That's all this is all from the same person. You know, just keep it up. They're doing a great job.
Holly Shannon 26:44
Yeah, they're really tapping into the brand relationships. And, you know, the indie artists, which is pretty cool. Let me just jump back, you said that you had purchased NF T's more as like a test. And now you are purchasing, because you want something, you know, something spoke to you as a piece of art. So you're officially a collector now? You are and so sort of like a three pronged question on it. Does it have utility? And if it did, did it matter to you? And does it have a roadmap? And if it does, does that matter to you? And then I'll ask you the third question after you answer that.
William Entriken 27:41
This is easy. No, no, no. So I'm not the collective the artwork, but I'm a supporter of the artist. So somebody I know, because no roadmap, money's going directly to them for their own life, not going to some grand scheme that has in any way, going to benefit my my token. So I don't expect any value out of this period. I don't expect you like a Metaverse slash game, I don't have a roadmap. A lot of those things are people should not be doing as much as they're dealing with that stuff. Some of that is kind of the wrong direction. You know, sometimes that might be a security, you know, if you're buying something, but you expect it to go up in value, and they're telling you it's gonna go up in value, and they're telling you they have a roadmap might be a security, if they're selling you something with a roadmap, and they don't deliver that, that might be false advertising. So click, a lot of these things are not going to be prosecuted if you're just doing some small NFT drops or whatever. But again, I'm looking for big picture here. I'm looking for sustainable, like ideas that are going to run, you know, into billions and trillions of dollars. So I don't want to see any of that stuff. I don't want to see. Yeah, it's just my mindset, always thinking big. So I want to be involved with projects that are, you know, doing the right things and set up the right way.
Holly Shannon 29:11
You know, I see both sides of it. So I'm an artist, I've always been an artist and I released my NFT but I said from the beginning there's there's no utility on it. There's not going to be anything unlocked. And there's not going to be any roadmap I don't want to set anybody up for disappointment if I'm unable to do it. It literally supports my show myself, my art and the artists that collaborated with me and that's it, you know, it's the end all be all for me. But I think for for big brands that have the marketing arm that have the the money to build out just about anything they want. I actually think that The magic is in the utility for them that there's something special about having a roadmap, especially as you go through the effort of building fans, you know, the fandom aspect of it.
William Entriken 30:14
This is a good point. I've seen a lot of people do it the wrong way. So I've seen a lot of projects that don't have resources or experience and they just have an idea. And basically, they're using NFT's like ICOs back in the day back in 2017 18. ICO was when you had basically like a Kickstarter, but just times 1000 times more money. So like, Oh, I've got a cool idea would be so it'd be super awesome. If I had $100 million to go do that. That's an ICO, I want to build satellites that float around Earth to take pictures. And something something something, because if I had 100 million to do that, that's an ICO a brand that's trying to launch a product and get people excited, because brands don't know how to connect with their customers anymore. And they want to try something new, we'll get warmer. And then brands that actually have something that they're going to deliver on with a real product team. And that brands has done stuff before. And then connecting people into that now you're getting hot. So I draw a distinction between somebody like you putting a roadmap onto your token, and talking about how you're going to create. And then something ridiculous versus a shoe brand, saying, Well, we have a new shoe coming out. We've made shoes for 100 years, we're definitely gonna make the new shoe with or without you. And PS, we want to draw you into the creative process. That's our roadmap. That's extremely believable. But if the suit shoe brand says, Well, we're going to hire a game company to make game bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, shoe companies don't make games. And they did it sucks. If they if they would, it would suck. So don't put your money on a shoe company launching a successful triple A game with a game studio hope Yes. Isn't the game studio, it's the people that left the game studio to go pitch the shoe company. They don't even have the resources, the game studio. So that's where I'm like, Well,
Holly Shannon 32:17
no, no, no, that's it. That's an interesting point to make. No, I'm glad you do that. I think I'm looking more at like, let's just say for instance, you know, like, go back to that first example Adidas but I'm saying it correctly for my friend Cormack Jackson in the UK that corrects me all the time. Adidas and Prada. And they get together and they make, you know, a special sneaker. And then maybe the utility, it's not gamified. They're not bringing a game in. But maybe, you know, the unlockable part of it is they get some sort of like, colored shoelaces that they could redeem, you know, to, like personalize that pair of sneakers for them, they get to choose, you know, one out of three cars. That's what I mean, like by gaming it like making it fun and creating fans, but probably using the word fans was wrong, because that sort of implies a different kind of game. And I wasn't really, that's probably not what I meant, I probably should have had used a better word like brand ambassadors or something.
William Entriken 33:23
But you're right, I mean, this, they have experiences making shoes and shoe laces, what could go wrong. They can, you know, they can make some ass colors. This is what shoe companies do. They design styles, they do collaborations, they mix colors. Now we're seeing a lot more shoot collaborations, but none of that is outside of their sphere. So I think they're going to be successful with that.
Holly Shannon 33:46
I agree. Let me let me ask you a question. William, you had said, I'm going to take you back in the conversation, just a smidge here. So you had said that you just recently bought bought an NFT couple months ago and like you I've been very cautious about what I do as well. I've had people give once to me. But I've been waiting for the right time for certain things. And also because I have a podcast and I just you know, it's it makes a difference what people see what I do. So I'm careful about that. But what was interesting to me is that you bought the art to support that artist and I will go so far as to say for art sake, like you appreciate that. And you spoke about value. So what I want to ask you is when you buy art as a collector, what is the value you're looking for? Is it you know the intrinsic value of seeing it in your digital wallet? Is it the ability to print it out and have it on your wall did that artists send you like something physical like is it The twinning you know, the physical and digital. Sorry, there's like a bunch of questions in there. But I know you know where I'm going. So I know you can answer that.
William Entriken 35:07
Yes. So I just happens to be that I know her. And, you know, I support our work, we had actually done a collaboration together. So we had also joint authored an NFT, that's still for sale. And it was, there was good stuff. And I thought, you know, I want to support her. And it's, I don't put it on my wall, I didn't get one of those TVs with NF t's on it. And I didn't plan on changing my profile photo, I didn't feel like other people would really get it so much. A lot of other people do that. So other people find value in a lot of different reasons. Some people I think, I wrote an article about the different value propositions for these NF T's. These aren't NF T's. And whether it's flex value. So flex would be, you know, if you've got one of these things, and everybody knows what they're worth, and you put it in your profile photo, well, is that any different than you taking the photo next to your car, or it's like, the logo is like right there, but it's like, like, kind of just like, it's not in view, but it's in view? Like, what's the difference? Right? It's like that, literally times 10. So it's like, well, you with your car. And for 10x more, you could just have a picture of this animal on your profile photo. And that communicates the same thing. So I always want to tie it back, I always want to tie back to things you're saying. So I don't think we're creating new modes of value. Humans don't, there's no, the 21st century is not the century where humans, unlike little unlock the new value proposition. You know, it still goes back to the same things from millennia ago. And so I'm just drawing it these comparisons. So I think the car picture, if you've ever been on a dating website, or seen whatever it's like that, like, what are you doing? What is this? That's what this is? There's a lot of that going on? And people are doing it, you know, with abandon now. Whereas it used to be like, Oh, that picture is, you know, do you really need to show off how much you have a car and that photo. And now it's like, oh, when you do it 10 times bigger, oh, you've got that thing, that's worth a lot more than that. So you use these to be shy, and now they're, you know, reckless about it, which is cool, you know, you'd be you. So that's one angle. But then you've also got, you know, you've got the art itself, I think there's a little bit of that people that like the artwork, they like the colors, you know, there's some interesting stuff out there. You can also just copy paste, you don't have to pay for that. So, you know, anybody can just copy paste this stuff and put it anywhere. And that's a whole debate. And then you've also got the artists. So do you Did you follow this artists before? You know, a year ago? You know, I don't think people just walk into a room and fall in love with artists all day. Are you the type of person that goes to a record store and talks to them about all the artists and then buys all the records? Because you just love all of them? Now, then why are you buying NFT's like that. That's not, that's not the reason, there's a different reason. So we can definitely compare albums, buying records, or NFT's or whatever you can, you can walk into a record store, find a record, love the artist, take a selfie with it and put that on your profile photo. And yet people aren't doing that why. So then we have another value proposition, which is just, you know, these are financial assets. People think they want to get in and they want to sell. And anything that's liquid is going to be like that, you know, you can buy stuff, if you think it's gonna go up in price. I buy a popular brand of computer every year. And yet, when I sell it, it costs more because I bind with student discount, you know, you buy it, and then you sell it at the same price. So it's like, me buying a computer every year, that could be you know, a liquid asset just happens to be this brand new computer. I think you know, what I'm talking about holds its value very well. And maybe you're in that race to divide the new computer every year. And then you sell it well,
Holly Shannon 38:55
but I'm a proud user the same one. So I have all I've always everything I have is Apple.
William Entriken 39:05
Yeah. Oh, she said. But that's how this works. And so if you if you know that and you buy these things every year, you know, is it for you? Is it really? Do you really need to touch bar? Do you really not want to touch bar when they got rid of the touch bar? And then they brought it back again? Do you want the new one with the touch bar if you just said you don't like it? If you said you liked it? Like do you really need the magnetic on the back?
William Entriken 39:29
That's just nothing it's not even attached here. Like you didn't even get one of those wallet attached. Right?
Holly Shannon 39:33
No, I do have that I do have that. Alright, I'm gonna admit like that is really clutch because I live in the city. So like I put on my little wallet on here and it's got like my, my credit card and my license and I could just pocket and go so I'm a proud user of that feature.
William Entriken 39:51
Cool. But it's like why am I buying the computer? Is it is it that I love this brand so much I just want them that my money or is it you know? No one when I can buy a computer every year and have zero cost because I sell it next year for the same price. That's a financial asset now, so me buying food every year, it's like, I don't care if it's touch or not, I don't care this base, I'm just buying it, I'll get a new one. And you know, that company is paying me to just sit on it for a year. So I basically get free computers every year. So for me, that's a different value proposition. And if tears can be like that, too, you know, if you buy it, and you know, you're going to exit, it doesn't matter what it looks like. But there's different reasons. So you don't, all the time, and they all get together and people lie. People, people say, Oh, I love the pictures. They're not they're not kind of source.
Holly Shannon 40:40
They're signaling again, it's that virtue signaling that they talk about. And it took me aback like when you were talking about with the, with the car with the emblem thing I immediately went to. I know, you had to have seen this episode of Friends where Joey dresses up in all Porsche attire, and stands in front of the horse. And then the car disappears. He puts a bunch of boxes, and he gets the car cover up, but I was completely taken aback when you said that. You did see that right?
So this is really amazing. I appreciate this conversation. And I have a left field question for you. Because I usually have these. So who do we have to blame out of the four authors that came up with non fungible token? Could we have come up with a different way of calling this thing?
William Entriken 41:38
That's Dieter.
Holly Shannon 41:41
Okay, so we have to give him a hard time.
William Entriken 41:43
Yeah. So he came up with it. And in the process, I wanted to objectively look at this, this actual wording. So I actually renamed it. So I renamed it. Because I didn't want to have like we were, we were actively debating this stuff. So I didn't want any of this, you know, the cement, the cement was poured, and I'm stirring it, so it doesn't, doesn't hurt. I'm like,
Holly Shannon 42:06
I love this analogy.
William Entriken 42:09
So I've renamed it, and we call them deeds. So don't Don't tell me you're gonna keep the word non fungible token just because of inertia. There's a lot of stuff happening. And I want to get through a lot of memes. And then you know, it can be non fungible, I'm not saying that it's good or bad. But I definitely want to start this before it drives. So we've renamed it to deeds, that was a whole thing. And people are complaining, well, why did you rename it? Who are you to rename it? I said, Because part of the plan, we're gonna rename it back and have a vote, but we're gonna have community input, we're gonna go through the ideas, brainstorming phase, I knew that this is important. I knew that the naming of things is super important. And so I did want to open this up to a lot of people. So I'm responsible for running the choice process, the name itself came from Dieter, and you should see the options that we came up with, there's, there's some winners and losers in there.
Holly Shannon 42:59
We can't go back to some of the other winners can wait, it's too late.
William Entriken 43:03
You can read them, they're, they're interesting. You're gonna according to so I can't tell you which ones I like or don't like either. So, but you can look at them. And they're, you know, this, this, these discussions are permanent. So you can scroll back and laugh at anybody.
Holly Shannon 43:16
That's true for you. You can submit the names to me, and we can put it in the show notes so that everybody can can take votes. We could do like a poll on LinkedIn or something be pretty funny.
William Entriken 43:25
Well, that's great, because we did a poll four years ago, and so we can compare the poll then versus the poll now.
Holly Shannon 43:31
Oh, I love this idea.
William Entriken 43:33
I think we know the answers. If you read the first sentence of ERC 721. Its non fungible tokens, also known as deeds. So that was the runner up. So there's actually two names for this thing.
Holly Shannon 43:45
All right. And nobody went with deeds. You know. We're gonna have to come after Dieter for this. You know, Tom, we're coming after him.
William Entriken 43:55
You telling me you just told all of his, his coworkers?
Holly Shannon 44:00
Absolutely. We're coming for you from Culture Factor. We're gonna see if we can rename this. This was awesome. William, you are just so much fun. And I've really enjoyed this time with you. Thanks for coming on Culture Factor. Thank you. So what do you think? I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Wherever you leave a message know that I'll engage with you. And others will too. I may even share your thoughts on the show. This summer is coming in hot. Please share this episode of culture factor now and listen with your friends. It's always more fun that way. And don't forget the harmony wine Rosae. The summer series of culture factor was produced by pale blue studios. And that person behind it is Avery Rogers. She is the creative force that took all of my interviews from NFT NYC and created the stories that you've been listening to all summer stories around user experience, design, trust, and a web three for good. I want to thank her for her efforts. And I want you to follow her on LinkedIn. She is truly one to watch. Thank you, Avery for making my summer series. Truly sensational. And something that is just a body of work that you should be incredibly proud of, and that I am too.