Vladislav Ginzburg: P2: Alpha on Creator to Fan to Creator, what Utility do you Want?

Vladislav Ginzburg is the Chief Executive Officer at Blockparty.

Ginzburg leads Blockparty and the mission to build a blockchain-agnostic platform for collectible NFTs at the intersection of art, music and culture. Blockparty launched their MVP In August 2020 with a number of mainstream oriented drops, including first digital artworks by 3lau/Slime Sunday, Adventure Club, Dave Krugman and others.

Earlier, Ginzburg was Chief Business Development officer at Blockparty Tickets where he introduced blockchain as an NFT powered ticketing system to music festivals and professional sports teams, including a partnership with the Sacramento Kings of the NBA.

Before entering the Blockchain and entertainment spaces, Ginzburg managed a fine art fund where he transacted more than $150 million in blue chip artworks. Ginzburg studied at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio as well as The New School in New York.

Let’s dig into your art background first, I believe it lays the groundwork for your interest in NFT related art and event?

In the art world, Vladislav Ginzburg has managed several high-value growth funds in the fine art industry where he has executed transactions for iconic canvas works by Pablo Picasso, Andy Warhol, Jean-Michele Basquiat, Salvador Dali, Pierre Auguste Renoir, and hundreds of others for clients., including placing works into museum exhibitions globally

Transcript

Vladislav Ginzburg: P2: Alpha on Creator to Fan to Creator, what Utility do you Want?

Holly Shannon  00:06

Welcome to Culture Factor. I'm your producer and host Holly Shannon. Our new season looks at creators, innovators and entrepreneurs. Why? Because the creator and gig economy is emerging. Talent has gone to work for themselves. The new year starts with the 101, or the beginner guide for NFTs, blockchain, cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, and all those Metaverse and Web3 topics we keep hearing about. We're all going back to school on Culture Factor to understand this decentralized economy. From creator coins to the tax implications of selling crypto, let's unpack these emerging technologies in really simple terms. Join me and feel free to send in your questions. Would your brand like to sponsor Culture Factor? It is your opportunity to be a part of a podcast that is ranked in the top 2% globally and heard in over 89 countries. Email holly@hollyshannon.com. Subscribe to Culture Factor and share with a friend now. 

Holly Shannon  01:04

Okay, welcome back to part two on Culture Factor. If you missed the first part of our conversation, add it to your queue now. Gosh, I have like a couple things that have come up since saying all this. I'm really excited about the rendering of the physical art into the NFT on a, so, in the past, I was a jewelry designer. And one of my last collections was a 3d printed collection. And so I hand drew what I wanted. And I took the picture of it. I use the JPEG and I upload it into several layers of different software. So it got you know, it went from dot jpg to dot STL to dot SVG. You know, it went through a few iterations. And I ended up making this 3d printed line of jewelry. And I've often wondered, could that 3d file that I originally made, could that be uploaded into an NFT and converted into a wearable to be used in the metaverse? So I was like, I've been thinking about that. And as soon as you said how she converted her artwork using like the AI technology and the scanning and the whole thing I was like, Huh, that's kind of cool, because that's something I've been thinking about. But I kind of digressed a little I just, you sort of brought that up. So I just wanted to share like I feel,

Vladislav Ginzburg  02:50

 As a creator, 

Holly Shannon  02:52

We're on the edge is what I'm saying of like more create more things happening from physical to digital, and I'll stop there if you go.

Vladislav Ginzburg  02:59

No, no, I was I was gonna ask you because this is this is this is where things get interesting, right? The idea of NFT is pretty much a blank canvas. It's what the creators do with it, that brings it to life. And so you yourself are a creator. And you yourself are aware of the metaverse and and are on the edge of these things. So as somebody that creates jewelry and is experienced with the technology available to you as a jewelry creator, how do you think about the metaverse? How do you think about bringing, bridging the physical with the digital?

Holly Shannon  03:31

Well, you know, I love that because I think that we've already been doing that with gaming. You know, I think when you look at like your Fortnights and things like that I remember my son buying, you know, skins and you know, different things to identify his character the way he imagined that character to be. And I think since we're sort of I feel like Metaverse is at the moment, a little bit, a reflection of gaming, like, doesn't quite feel like tangible to me yet, although I know, eventually you'll be able to shop there and do you know, sit down and join a podcast there and you know, like many different things, but the idea that people want to wear things in the metaverse be it clothes, makeup, jewelry, accessories, we're reimagining ourselves there. And so I just think that there's probably a place for that, you know, like, it may not be me doing it, but I think that there's going to be a lot of that coming down the pike and I also see it, unfortunately, a little bit less exciting to me is the big brands doing it because it's just virtue signaling in the metaverse to me, you know that you're wearing those special kicks from from Nike that you're wearing live and in person, but I just I see like, a lot of designers that maybe don't want to create a physical necklace or a dress or pair sneakers, but they want to do it digitally. Like I see a whole universe of creators that way too. And I'm not sure that it really answered your question. But that's sort of what...

Vladislav Ginzburg  05:19

No, you did. You did I, because I, you know, I want to hear from the creators point of view. And I want to hear from the, and I also want to hear exactly what you brought up, some of the things that you're skeptical about. I mean, one of the, with this conversation, the conversation you and I had in Austin, and the conversation you and I are having today is a really exciting one, because you're a creative technologist. I'm a creative technologist, and we put our heads together, and we have this mind meld of all the possibilities and all the things that could be and it's a very validating conversation to have, because I wouldn't want to be anywhere else or doing anything else. This is a great moment for creativity. That's not to say that there's not room for skepticism. And I think that it's equally as important to meet the skepticism head on as it is to get excited about it. So you brought up, you brought up the Nike's, the bigger brands getting into the metaverse, and that may not necessarily be as exciting. So, and I think that there's, and I think that there is a, I think that there is a lot to explore there. I think there's a lot to explore there. Because the question I have is why? Why? Not rhetorically why like this, like don't do this. But why why for brands to get into Web3? Why for a brand to get into the metaverse? What are, what are they hoping for, another point of sale? Or are they bringing something to the table? And are they, are they adding something to the conversation? Like, I think, further to that point, I think brands, clothing brands have been in the metaverse for decades. I can go online and I can buy whatever Nikes I want, right? There's a cool 3d graphic and I can build them from scratch and all that stuff. So by getting into the metaverse now what? And what's, what's the point of view? And so at Blockparty that's a question we have all the time. And I think that I have found that brands that kind of have a purpose and are very good at articulating their purpose tend to have more success in, in this, in this world. Do you agree?

Holly Shannon  08:03

No, I do agree. And Nike probably is a good representation of that. I wasn't trying to slam them. But I was just trying to quickly come up with a,

Vladislav Ginzburg  08:13

That's cool because they have, they have been active.

Holly Shannon  08:15

Yeah, yeah.

Vladislav Ginzburg  08:20

They have been active and I think, you know, I think that there is, one of the brands that I that I'm seeing be very clever about the metaverse that we work with at Blockparty is Spinnin' Records right? They're, you know, they're one, they're a brand that I would say, is having conversations with us with other platforms with various metaverses, and they've been thinking about this stuff for well over a year. But they haven't like gone running in. They've been very thoughtful about asking themselves, who are we? What is our purpose? And what is our purpose in the metaverse? And there is something about their thinking. And I won't you know, I'm not sure I'm gonna get into what exactly they're planning. But there's a certain je ne sais quoi about it, that I would have a hard time putting my finger on until you and I spoke today. It's, and I realize now, I think what I like so much about their concept is not there trying to do the next thing after Web2, but there's something very Web1 about it. And that's, and, and that's cool. And I don't think I could have articulated that before speaking to you today.

Holly Shannon  09:46

Wow, glad I helped with that. I had another question for you and I, I think the Innovation part. I would love to just ask about, you know, you, you had said you have some creators that they're less concerned about the user interface, and how to buy a ticket type of thing. And they're more about the innovating part of it. And that's the part that's really exciting you at Blockparty. So for me, I kind of feel like, okay, we're talking about NFTs, but we're missing a piece of the conversation if we're not talking about the utility, right, like I, and I feel like the magic might be in the utility. So are you seeing with Blockparty, with the artists that are coming before you that they are transcending, that they're bringing utility innovation to the table that is exciting? Maybe you can share an example? Because to me, I feel like, because I come from an experience world, you know, that's my background events. You know, we talked about that. I worked in five star hospitality, it was all about the experience, right. And I think that there's artists innovating, and they're thinking about that part of it. It's not just the concrete piece. It's the experience that their community is having. So are you seeing them utilize utility? Sorry, I use the same word there. But you know, what I'm trying to say? Do you see them creating an innovating in the utility part of that picture?

Vladislav Ginzburg  11:40

Certainly some are, I would, it's a very, it's a very timely question that you, that you're asking. Because there's been a big debate on Twitter, I think over the last week or so, about utility and art. It was a very popular photographer that is beloved in the web three space, released a collection of photographs. And it sold very, very well. And a bunch of the buyers were like, wait a minute, where's the utility? And the artist was like I didn't say anything about utility, it's an artwork. And, and it kind of sparked the debate of the question that you're asking. And I would, I would certainly say that art is utility in and of itself. Right, though, I think that the utility I get from a lot of the NFTs that I've created, is that I get to display them on the walls of my home, I'm still a pretty tactile person. And I still love to have, you know, my space on my art be around my space, and having beautiful artwork on my walls is utility. I think about the albums of music that I hold near and dear to my heart, the utility is how they make me feel right? Like, and just and the songs and the the experience of the the song itself. And so there is a, I would usually encourage folks to look at the NFT space, and separate out like the art and the media, from utility. And there are some entities that are purely utility based. Right. And that is, and that's, that's great, because I think that the ability of utility in the space is amazing. And the opportunities are amazing. These are two different things. However, you make a great point that events are utility oriented. Now, the music business isn't when you know, when a musician creates music, they don't just put songs on records to cause feels. They also go on tour and perform those songs live. And artists create artworks that are exhibited at art shows, and there is an overlap. So I do think that there is art utility, but they're not on opposite sides of the room either. They're two, there's two distinct buckets, they're two distinct circles. But in a Venn diagram, and there is an overlap there. And ultimately, I think it falls on the creator to decide and I think that we are seeing lots of cool utility out there. I think the number one thing that, the first thing that made people like open their eyes and say, Oh, wow, utility was where certain NFTs are also, you know, access keys to a, to a locked discord. And I think access for, like digitally gated access is a very interesting utility. And I think that the, you know, when you think about things like bored ape yacht club, and projects like that there's very interesting utility in the fact that you're buying the rights to your bored ape, not just not just a picture of the ape itself, you're buying the rights to it. And I think rights ownership is a very interesting utility. Now, you know, we just saw recently Coinbase announced that they're doing a series of bored ape movies. Well, they're doing casting calls, so they can't just take, you own the rights to your bored ape, so they can't just like, use bored apes in the movie, they actually have to cast your bored ape, and they're, like, you, the owner are negotiating with them, the rate for that. And so that is, that's wild, right? And now we're like, now we're like, oh, my gosh, that's another, that's another, that's another very interesting thing that has not really happened before, and is now happening, and it's very much a, oh, oh damn. Okay, that's, that's, that's very interesting. And that's very new. And there's also the idea of utility in the sense that one NFT can become something else. So you know, what happens when I'm a musician, I drop a NFT to a song. Now, if you go stream that song 100 times on Spotify, Now, your NFT becomes a VIP ticket. So I think, I think the idea of utility goes back to something that you and I discussed a moment ago, which is NFTs is just kind of like code, right? It's it's really NFTs are primitive. It's a primitive, like our job as the NFT platform is to help creators issue NFTs and help creators navigate the code side of it. But NFTs is a primitive, it's up to the creator, to think about what they want to do with it. And we are consistently, I'll say, again, just wowed and surprised by all the creativity pouring into the space, and, and pushing the boundaries of what utility means. And it's, it's really, it's really special. So you know, I think that it's, it's also up to your listeners to think that themselves, like what utility would I like to see from, from artwork, or from music or from whatever. You make a really interesting point about your son. And it's something I see play out with my younger brother, who's a little bit younger than your son, but in the same general age range. And when I was, when I was a teenager, it mattered what I wore to the park what I wore to school, you know, because that's your personhood. That's what, that's what you, that's what, how you present yourself. My brother is concerned about what he looks like in Fortnight. Right, and he's, and when he goes to school, he's around 900 or so of his peers, Monday through Friday. But when he goes on to Fortnight after school, he's playing with hundreds of millions of people, you know, so the utility of wearables is something that take on a whole new life for sure. Yeah.

Holly Shannon  19:13

Yeah. You know, you did answer my question, which is good, because I actually think a lot like you. I love tangible things. I love the art on my walls. I love the way a song makes me feel. And I think what's important, and it sounds to me, like Blockparty is doing this, like I feel like you've built this in because you appreciate, so I think what you're doing is you're introducing the artist and giving them permission to create their NFT, let's just say it's the digital representation of the painted canvas they're going to send to somebody. And the utility is simply enjoying that piece of artwork in their space. And for me, I think it's really great that Blockparty is giving artists permission to just stay focused on the intrinsic value you're giving to somebody, if to you the art on the wall, and how it makes the buyer feel is everything, then that's where you stop. And I think to be able to offer to that other customer that's coming to Blockparty that says, Yes, intrinsic. But for me, there's a further evolution that I see. And so having it be able to be cast into a play or become a concert, or become a wearable, I think it's just great that what you're offering can serve the artist where they are. Does that make sense?

Vladislav Ginzburg  21:01

It doesn't make sense. And it is a, it's a reality check, sometimes that we have to do as a space, I remember a, speaking to a very prominent artist, again, one that was very successful, pre NFTs. And his work is natively digital. So you know, he paints along side and algorithm. And I'm just like, What, uh, I got in touch with him being like, you're a perfect candidate for an NFTs. And the guy was like, I know all about it nowadays. And I'm like, Oh, what happened? This was, this was in this was in mid 2020. So still, like very early in the whole thing. Being a creative technologist, you know, he belongs to a lot of like, online communities. And certainly people were like, oh, NFTs NFTs. So he experimented a couple of his digital artworks being turned NFTs. And people were at the time, in 2020, pretty much the sole utility of the NFT was to buy it and flip it. And buy and, you know, listen, after all, this is cryptocurrency, right? For the most part, crypto is really simple. A token can do precisely, you can do precisely three things with token, you can receive it into your wallet, you can send it out of your wallet, you can stake it. So utility is still a tough nut to crack. Because, you know, how do you create all sorts of new utilities for token based on those primitives? In 2020, you could basically buy token and sell it, you know, and so a lot of, he was he had a negative experience as artists, because a lot of people were pinging him and DMing him being like, oh, please sell this for lower, please sell it for lower would you know, you're charging one eath. Will you take point two eth? And yeah, yeah, or just, by the way, haggling over art. I did that for a living, you know, no, no, no big deal. It was just that, the artist was like yeah, I granted a couple of people, you know, I negotiated with a bunch people in the DMs, I sold them lower than I wanted to, five seconds later, it's, you know, it's flipped somewhere else and somewhere else, somewhere else? And, you know, he was just like, not for me, not for me. And then, you know, he's actually still activated the space and doing very well. So I guess it was for him. But,

Holly Shannon  23:36

Well, maybe you were able to explain to him the legacy in it like, Okay, you sold it for less, but then they resold it, and you still got a percentage of that. So if they maybe they became like, you know, 

Vladislav Ginzburg  23:52

That guy doesn't need me to tell him anything. I think, I think that we're kind of seeing it again, right where now, an artist is doing a drop of like, 1000 NFTs. And people are like, Okay, well, what's the utility?

Holly Shannon  24:10

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Vladislav Ginzburg  24:51

We have to get really clear as a NFT community that about like, what it is that we're doing. So one of the things that I like is that at Blockparty, we have a very clear perspective of things that we do. There are other NFT platforms out there that are just laser focused on utility. And if Blockparty, for example, and this is actually what I love about how collaborative the spac is for the time being. Blockparty, for example, we're worried about just giving the creator tools and capturing as much creativity as possible to bring art onto the blockchain. And that will definitely have a lot of artists say, Well, I would like this utility and that utility and that utility, how do I do that? We'll usually make a warm handoff to another company that is very focused on utility. And, and because these are all like, self custody wallets that are on a blockchain that's publicly viewable, Holly, as long as you have an, a wallet, an etherium wallet, any company built on Etherium can, you know if you're, if you're a Blockparty client, but you want to add utility, I call up utility, a company that focuses on utility and say, Well, here's the contract address at the NFT, here's the wallet, and so just, you know how utility company read the wallet, read the contract address and offer that utility. So by being you know, if Blockparty were to try to do everything, we would do nothing. And by taking advantage of the fact that we all kind of share, nobody has nobody has a proprietary client in the space, right? Because a creator on Blockparties and Etherium wallet, that wallet, that token are just viewable by anybody else that's looking at that blockchain, you can start to really connect the dots with other companies doing other cool things. So I was you know, that's something that is great, because you can be creative and start connecting the dots.

Holly Shannon  27:06

Did I just lose you? 

Vladislav Ginzburg  27:07

No, I'm here. 

Holly Shannon  27:08

Okay. Okay. For a second, I felt a little glitchy. I would, I know I have you on for a really long time here, I but I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't dive into your relationship with Warner Music and Blockparty. Do you mind if I keep you a little longer to, and switch gears into the music side of NFTs from the outside? Thank you. Tell me a little bit about this collaboration or this business venture together and how it works with the creators, and yeah.

Vladislav Ginzburg  27:44

Sure. Absolutely. I got to know Warner about a year ago. And it's been a pleasant relationship. I, you know, in this space, I've definitely met a lot of folks that are getting through for the wrong reasons. And this is not the forum to name names. But I will certainly say that Warner Music is a, probably the biggest organization I've ever spoken to, that I can say hand over heart is in entered the Web3 world for all the right reasons. That, it feels good to say that, you know, and I'm not just saying that, because we're partners, I'm saying that, that's because we're partners, right? That was like, that was, that made me very interested in the partnership, and pursuing one with them when we first met. If any of your listeners just key in Warner Music Group's website, and go to the About Us, they have a mission statement. And I find that, you know, integrity is a big deal to me. And every conversation I've had with Warner around NFTs, around web three, I can trace a line right back to the mission statement, which to me feels like a very integrative organization, right, even though they control like such a huge swath of the world's IP, in terms of music, they are, they're sort of living their mission, which I love to see, you know, it says it right there that, you know, they're, I can't quote it off the top my head, but I can, but I'm paraphrasing here, that, you know, their mission is to enable Warner artists to you know, be on the cutting edge of technology and, and help usher them into into the future, whatever the future is. And so, you know, they, as an organization, are looking to innovate, are looking to take advantage of, are looking to learn about this space and take advantage of the opportunities that offers to their artists. And so one of the one of the first things I sort of got interested in is that, you know, Warner has their vision and has their reason to get to be smart about the Web3 space, and there's definitely, it's not like Warner says so and then every artist must follow, it's quite the opposite. Warner's like your the artist, whoever they want, whatever they want, but we're here for them as a resource to help them do this better. So whenever we meet a Warner artist, you know, they are interested in doing something in Web3, and we're just, you know, Warner is not like pushing us, like, go to a drop, make a ton of money. They're thrilled if that happens. But mainly, it's, you know, they're looking for us to educate their artists, they're looking for us to help their artists like realize their vision of Web3. So, many artists that we've spoken to have no idea what this is all about. And they're curious, and they want to learn, and we'll generally be a sounding board, we'll help talk to them about it, open their mind to the possibilities. And more often than not, they will call us back three weeks later and be like, Okay, I sat on this and chewed on it. Here's my idea. What do you guys think? We're like, wow, that's, that's amazing. I dare to say there have been a handful of artists that we've spoken to, that are actually like super, super, super into crypto super into NFTs. And they're just like, my fans don't know that I'd like them to, so how do I do that? And it's cool, right? So we, we've got, we've gotten to, we've gotten to do very interesting projects with them. And, and I guess, when we first met, those first couple of calls, were just, you know, they were interested in our point of view on the Web3 space, we were interested in their point of view in the Web3 space, and it's been happy partnership. I mentioned earlier in our, in our interview, that we're working with Spinnin' Records, you know, that's a, that's part of our music group. And we get a chance to innovate with them, we get a chance to, like I was saying about the visual artists, we have an opportunity to speak with some of the most creative people in the world, thanks to the Warner partnership. And very many of their artists got to be where they are, excuse me, because they are not only supremely talented, supremely creative, but before they ever got noticed by record label, they were master community builders. They, you know, they, they did it as indie artists and billed venues as indie artists. That's not an easy thing to do. So we find that more often than not, sure, we'll educate a lot of artists about Web3. But more often than not, we're being educated, and about like how, their, they view community and how they view community building. If I can share one more thing with you about the partnership, and this is something that is really a unique challenge that I've been, that I've been excited to work on is that, as you can imagine, very many of the recent additions to the Warner Music Group family or roster or whatever, very many of the recent artists they've signed, let's say in the last two years, surprise, surprise, they didn't sign them because they were selling out venues, right? We are looking at a new crop. We've talked to a lot of artists in the quote unquote new crop of new Warner signees that aren't really touring, that haven't ever really toured. And that are natively digital musicians. And they've, they might not ever have like performed at a legit venue. But they have like 20 million Tiktok followers. And like that's a whole new challenge. It's all great because we just talk about utility. So very many of the artists that have been around for 10 years are like asking us about how can my NFT also be a VIP ticket, be a meet and greet because they go out on tour, and they're thinking about how their NFT can be utilized within the context of a live music experience. And now we have a bunch of 19 year old artists that are like, Oh, I'm not going on tour anytime soon. But how do I leverage my enormous Tiktok following? Because every time I do a song, I do a dance and now my followers are doing that dance and it's going viral. And so this is not something that we've done yet at Blockparty, it's not something I've seen really done as a whole in the NFT space, but I'll, I'll leak some future alpha for your, for your listeners is, look forward, we're on Culture Factor, right? So let's talk about culture. Look forward from, you know, we're recording today in April 2022, I would not be surprised if looking forward in the world of music NFTs, we are thinking more about how to leverage this amazing user generated content that comes out of the tiktoks, the world viral dances, right? So if I'm an artist, I have, I did a song and the dance to it went viral. What if I'm not selling NFTs to my fans? What if I'm encouraging my my fans to send me NFTS of the dance that they did, or the user generated content that they're making around my brand? And that is like, I'm rolling up my sleeves metaphorically. And thinking more about that. Because right now, are artists enjoying the virality of some of the user generated content? Absolutely. But are use- are the fans getting utility and getting value out of participating in their, in that viral thing? Sure, I mean, I'm, I don't do that. 

Holly Shannon  36:37

No but I know that they're like, Well, I'm a part of a viral, Yeah, they love it. That's why they want to duet, right?

Vladislav Ginzburg  36:44

So if NFTs are about ownership, and it's about ownership of digital assets, and you're participating in this viral dance, that's your digital asset. Let's make it a digital asset. You know, let's,

Holly Shannon  36:54

I love that. 

Vladislav Ginzburg  36:56

And how do we find that? So like, the relationship isn't creator to fan, but what if it's fan to creator? And now it's a two way street? And what if the, you know what, there's just a, I don't know, I, what, you know, this is the what if game. What if I go to a concert, and there is a, and there is a video wall of 100, of 1000 user generated content NFTs of fans sending in the dance that they did that went viral. But like, the musician has to license that from the fans, the fans own the asset. So anyway, I think there's a million again, I can only sit here and imagine so many things. It's, it's the musician, it's the creators that are masters of creativity, are going to tell us, this is what I want to see. And can you enable it? So anyway, that's the, that's the future of thinking stuff I would contribute here is, we keep talking about creator to fan. What about, what about fan to creator?

Holly Shannon  38:04

What about an experience where the fans show up to the live co- to the live concert, and they do, like, kind of like a flashmob dance where they're all dueting the dance at the same time, in the middle of field. You know, like there's, there's so many ways that could go back and forth, I feel like. So I don't know. I just, I love the whole idea.

Vladislav Ginzburg  38:31

The idea is great. This is really been, this has really been delightful. And I'm so happy that you brought me on. And this really feels to me a continuation of the amazing chat we had in Austin. And I'm so I'm so motivated by the idea of culture having an impact on blockchain and vice versa. So what better place for me to talk about that with you than on Culture Factor?

Holly Shannon  38:55

Thank you. And I'm really glad you came, you spent this time and I know we sort of went Joe Rogan here, we went a really long time and I know you have to go. So I thank you for coming. And we will catch up another way and definitely NFT NYC without a doubt. Thank you Vlad, I appreciate it.

Vladislav Ginzburg  39:15

Thank you so much.